Ep #136: Losing Weight Using Your Body as a Guide with Katrina Ubell

Ep #136: Losing Weight Using Your Body as a Guide with Katrina Ubell

Weight Loss Success with Natalie Brown | Losing Weight Using Your Body as a Guide Katrina Ubell

I’m so happy to be bringing you my first-ever interview on the podcast this week. I’m joined by Dr. Katrina Ubell, who is a coach for female physicians who helps them lose weight for the last time. She recently released a book where she makes her insight and knowledge available to everyone, not just the female physicians in the world, and she’s here to talk all about it.

Katrina has a gift for making complex concepts clear, simple, and understandable. Her book How to Lose Weight for the Last Time dives deep into emotional eating, thoughts, and feelings, and she’s here to discuss her own journey of discovery, unpacking all of her own emotional eating and food scarcity, and how you can do the same.

Tune in this week to discover how to become the expert when it comes to your own body and how you feed it. We’re discussing the emotional significance we apply to food, how to get clear on the thoughts, feelings, and habits that have shaped your current relationship with food, and how to do the work to transform your perspective and lose weight for the last time.

 

Learn more about my Love First Weight Loss group. We’re diving deep into how to make space for all of this with help, support, and lots of time for practice. Click here to get involved! 

 

 

What You’ll Learn from this Episode:

  • Katrina’s story and her journey with weight loss.
  • How Katrina’s food scarcity and emotional eating became worse throughout medical school and working as a physician.
  • Some of the things Katrina tried to lose weight before she learned about her emotional eating.
  • Why emotional eating is such a common problem, even among high achievers.
  • The intergenerational trauma that leads to food scarcity.
  • Why the idea of needing to clear your plate as a child might be showing up in your adult life and relationship with food.
  • How our bodies and brains react to highly processed foods and why you might benefit from taking a break.
  • What you can do to get in touch with your body and brain to become the expert on what your body needs to feel its best.

 

Listen to the Full Episode:

 

Featured on the Show:

Full Episode Transcript:

This is Weight Loss Success with Natalie Brown, episode 136.

Welcome to Weight Loss Success with Natalie Brown. If you’re a successful woman who is ready to stop struggling with your weight, you’re in the right place. You’ll learn everything you need to know to lose weight for the last time in bitesize pieces. Here’s your host, Master Certified Coach Natalie Brown.

Hey, everybody, I am so excited to introduce you to my friend and colleague and very first guest on the podcast, Dr. Katrina Ubell. She is a physician and a Master Certified coach who helps female physicians lose weight for the last time. She has written a book, it came out this week where she makes her amazing knowledge, and insight, and experience available to everyone, not just the female physicians in the world.

It’s so beautifully laid out, so well organized and I told you this, Katrina, you have such an amazing way of making really complex concepts, simple, and clear, and understandable for everyone. So do you want to introduce yourself, tell us a little of your weight story maybe, your background, whatever you feel is pertinent.

Katrina: Thank you for having me, Natalie, this is so fun. I’m so glad to be your first guest. This is just so exciting. I love it, yeah, thank you. So, my story is that I, overall, I mean like so many of us I learned to emotionally eat as a child. Did I know why I was doing that? No, of course, I didn’t. I just thought I liked food. And it was just a source of pleasure for me. I was an athlete at times, I would be on swim team and stuff. So overall my weight was fine.

And then it was I was doing, going to college, but then particularly when I was in medical school that I really started to struggle more with my weight and with overeating. Where as you can imagine with medical school you just progressively become busier, and busier, and busier, and busier. And then you just, all the things that support you, all the things that are your hobbies, the things you do for fun, even just spending time with friends becomes less, and less, and less available to you.

So basically, what you’re doing all the time is working or studying and taking tests, and studying some more, and then trying to get some sleep in there. And so, what are you supposed to do to support yourself when you have nothing else that you can really do to help yourself to feel better? The most socially acceptable thing to do is to eat. But of course, what do they give you for free in the hospital? They give you food. They give you donuts, and they give you pizza at lunch, and things like that.

And there is also a big culture in medicine about you never know what’s going to happen, which is true. So, you better eat now because you just don’t know. If you don’t eat breakfast now you might be operating for the next 12 hours and you won’t get a chance to eat. And I already had some food scarcity anyway but I really took that to heart. There is the saying in medicine, eat when you can, sleep when you can and don’t mess with the pancreas.

And I was just like, okay, eat when you can. I’ve got to eat, even if I’m not hungry at all, I just need to eat. So, it really, really sunk in, some poor coping habits that of course continued on into my medical training. It’s not like I didn’t know there was a problem, that’s also when I first discovered Weightwatchers and lost weight with Weightwatchers for the first time, became a lifetime member. And could totally follow the plan and be miserable through the whole thing and get the weight off.

But the minute I released any of the rules, or stopped counting points I started gaining it back again. And this happened, I’m not exaggerating when I say at least 10 times over the course of probably about 15 or more years, just up and down, up and down, throw some babies in there too. And I totally gained a ton of weight from overeating like crazy when I had babies, lost the weight again, gained it back. There was no peace around this and I really had no connection to the idea that I was an emotional eater.

I really just thought I liked food and that I had a slow metabolism or something. I really didn’t know what my problem was so to speak. And so, then I was approaching my 40th birthday, I had had my last baby, I lost the weight after having her. And then swore to myself I wouldn’t gain it back and then I promptly regained it back. And then I was like, “Shoot.”

Natalie: That was not the plan.

Katrina: What am I going to do now? That was not how I thought this was going to go. And obviously I’ve been doing this Weightwatchers thing so many times. And I’d tried other things that were even more restrictive that also did not have lasting results, if anything, just made my emotional eating worse. And I just started thinking, I’ve got to figure something else out. And so, I tried even more things.

I worked with a nutritionist, I did a bunch of different things. And none of them really worked but they kind of set me on the path to at least being open to the idea that I ate for reasons besides my body needing nutrition. And that was such an eye opener for me because the concept of an emotional eater, I was like, “What? No.” I literally would envision it in my head like a very sad woman, crumpled up in the corner crying into her bag of chips.

And I’m like, that’s not me, I’m totally functional and I’m successful and I’ve been 10 years in my medical practice. And I’ve got three kids and all of this stuff. I was like, I just didn’t identify with that. But then once I really realized, wait, I think emotional eating means eating at times when you’re not hungry. And I was like, well, I mean if that’s what it is then a 100% I do that for sure, I definitely do that.

So that started me opening me up to the idea that there could be something else besides having to figure out which are the foods. And I’d even been vegan for five years, all these different things trying to, you know, I just have to find the right way of eating. That’s going to be the thing. And then I started realizing, I have a feeling it might not be so much about the food, because I mean you can eat a bunch of junk when you’re a vegan too by the way because sugar is vegan, so there is a lot, you can do there.

But it really started opening me up to the idea that, you know what? There is something else here and that’s when I found life coaching which I didn’t even really know what it was. But I was like, this seems to make sense. I think I need to figure out what this whole emotional thing is. I was so disconnected from my body. I was a doctor, all you’re doing is denying your body’s needs all day long. You need to sleep, too bad, you have to stay up all night.

You need a pee, too bad, you better hold it because, you know, you just are sacrificing every one of your needs in favor of your patients. And then this just becomes an ongoing cycle. And then when you’re taking care of human beings there are some amazing things that happen and there’s also some very sad, or scary, or traumatic things that can happen. And we’re given no support on how to deal with that.

Some traumatic thing that happens with your patient, or while you’re in the hospital, and then you’re just left with nothing. You’re just supposed to act professional and like it never happened. So then of course we start using something else. Some people are using recreational drugs. Or some people are drinking more. Some people are spending too much or things like that. But the most social acceptable thing and the thing that I was most drawn to was eating.

So, I was realizing this just set in place these patterns that I did not know what to do with. And I had to really dissolve all of this stuff. I also had this whole story of nobody understands what my life is like because I’m a doctor and there’s all this unpredictability. And I really believed that story, that that was the reason why I couldn’t follow some of these more prescriptive plans. So, it was really through life coaching that I really started to realize, now, okay, this is what the real problem is here.

I don’t even know what I feel let alone know how to process my feelings. I’m like, “What do you mean, feelings?” I’m also the child of two Germans. So just to put that out there. Emotions were not a thing that we discussed. They were to be hidden, you’d pretend they don’t exist, things like that. And so, it was just a real almost like coming home to myself. Actually, learning who I am as a human, what it’s like to live in my body, repopulating my body, moving out of my head that I was so prized for, for so many years.

Going, “But what is happening in my body?” What do you mean, you eat when you’re hungry? You know what I mean? Trying to get connected to that. And so, through that I was able to lose over 50 pounds and that was six years ago. And I really honestly was like, “I think there might be some other doctors out there who might want this help too.” Because if I was struggling, some of them probably are too. And so, I just thought, you know what? I think maybe I should start offering some help to them. And it turned out they were all struggling too.

The other thing to recognize about being an overweight doctor struggling with food is that people can see on your actual body the internal struggle that you have. There are a lot of personal issues that people can struggle with. But you cannot by looking at them tell that that exists. So here you are a doctor giving people advice, supposedly you’re a health expert and it’s clearly visible on your body that you don’t know what to do either.

And then when you’re like me, and you fluctuate so much and people come in at various times in your weight loss and weight gain, and they feel the need to make comments about your body. And I just remembering being like, “I wish, just don’t even look at me. This isn’t even about me, it’s about your child.” And there’s so much humiliation and embarrassment factored into that too. I should know better and I’m not doing better. Therefore, something must be wrong with me. When of course it has nothing to do with that. I just didn’t really have the tools and skills that I needed.

Natalie: Absolutely. Well, and I think to me one of the things I love about your story is it’s kind of like celebrities, they’re just like us but doctors. I feel like for so many of us, we really respect and admire physicians. And you know so much more about my body than I know. How it works and all the things that are happening inside of it. So, to know, this struggle with emotional eating it kind of cuts across all professions and all academic achievements. I think there’s so many people who think if I just knew more or I was more disciplined, or things like that.

It’s like no, you can know so many things. You can know how to fix everything in my body and still not know how to allow your emotions and not cope with food. So, I love that. And I think, I mean there’s so many things that I can and I think all my people can and can’t relate to. And I’m not a physician but I do understand what it’s like to think what if I get hungry. And I remember always carrying with me granola bars or something. So, it’s like just in case, just in case.

If I have a chance to eat, I need to take advantage of that because hunger was this big sort of scary disconnected process. I didn’t really understand.

Katrina: I mean I would totally have – I would eat the granola bar even though I wasn’t hungry because I knew it was in my purse and I kept thinking about it. I can’t tell you the number of times I would be in a meeting and there would be some tray of cookies or someone had brought treats or whatever and they’re on the middle of the table. And you don’t want to be the first one to take something. But you can barely even pay attention to what they’re talking about because you’re like, am I going to have one now? Is no one going to take one? Are they going to pass it around?

I probably shouldn’t have that, I said I wasn’t going to. But I really want to. Do you know what I’m talking about?

Natalie: Yeah, 100%.

Katrina: This chatter, this constant consuming of your brain around the food. I just remember thinking, nobody around me seems to be as obsessed by these store bought not very good cookies but me, why?

Natalie: Yes. I think that’s so – I think that – I mean you mentioned it before but the idea of scarcity around food, I don’t think a lot of us think about that because we know there’s plenty of food available to us. We’re not, most of us here listening have food in our fridge and our pantry and DoorDash on our phone or whatever. So, it’s not really that food is scarce. But that mentality is so pervasive. And I think that’s a huge part of why so many people feel like food chatter’s the number one thing they want to address.

It’s just thinking about food constantly and being in those situations where it’s like but, and even if it’s something you don’t want. You just don’t want to miss out. So, let’s talk about that a little bit. Where does that come from? We live in western culture where there’s plenty of food. So where do we get triggered into I have to eat this, now is my chance?

Katrina: I mean I think it’s a combination of things. I think that there’s for sure transgenerational trauma for a lot of people, meaning that maybe it wasn’t your parents directly but maybe it was your grandparents or even their parents. Who really did live through a time of lack, where there really wasn’t food. And we all have these different stories of what happened. I mean for sure it was in my family too. And then from those experiences of potentially not having what you need, arguably starvation or close to it.

Then once there was food the messaging was, well, you need to eat what you have. You can’t waste this. Food is precious and it’s so important and you need to eat it when it’s available to you. And so, then it’s kind of training us to place an overemphasis on the importance of food. And then I think another element of it can be, so maybe it’s not that for someone, or maybe in combination. It can be an element of not feeling like your needs are going to be met in some way.

And so that doesn’t necessarily mean that as a child you were neglected or not saying anything negatively about the people who raised or us or anything like that. But it could be related to food. It could be maybe related to something else where we start to develop this belief that our needs won’t be met. I know for sure that was part of it for me too. Where it was kind of this feeling of I don’t know if I’ll be able to have, you know, get what I need. So, I’d better have something now so that I don’t suffer later.

And I think honestly all those years of dieting made that so much worse for me because I followed the plan so rigidly, the Weightwatchers plan, and this is as many points as you get and I’m such a rule follower, A+ student. I was like, okay, that’s it. And then I was so afraid of being hungry later and not having any points which is ridiculous because I could have just eaten the food that was in my house. But in my mind I’m thinking I’m not allowed to eat it. So, then I would overeat on plan food, free no point food to make myself overly stuffed to try to prevent some hunger that I might feel in the future.

And then it just keeps this cycle going of my needs won’t be met, I won’t be able to meet my own needs when it’s just not true at all. Now it’s like okay, we’re adults like you said, I think probably the people listening have the means and accessibility to be able to meet their own needs with food. But we’re still thinking the old way. And that’s the problem. Because the circumstances aren’t creating our experience of being around food, it’s the way that we think. So, I think that plays a big part.

Natalie: Absolutely. And I think, you know, and I remember you mentioned this in the book, the idea of cleaning our plates, how often were we told. And like you said, not because we were the kids that didn’t have enough food but because our parents maybe raised by the kids who didn’t have enough food. So that was just what parents said, you sat at the table and your parents were like, “You’ve got to eat your whole plate.” I remember sitting for hours after dinner because I hated milk.

And I remember my mom being like, “You have to finish drinking your milk before you get up from this table.” And it’s warm by the time I’m choking it down.

Katrina: [Crosstalk].

Natalie: Yeah. I mean I think for me my age group it was the starving children in other parts of the world, Ethiopia.

Katrina: Ethiopia was the big one, yeah.

Natalie: Eating shows that we’re grateful for what we have, eating all of it. I mean there’s so much tied to it but I think that bottom line that I really love that kind of the thread that connects all of it is us believing for whatever reason, that this is the time and the place and the way that we meet our needs. Whether it’s that we had emotional trauma and the food comforted and so we’re like, “Well, this is granola bar in the middle of the meeting is my opportunity for comfort because I don’t know how else I’m going to get that.

And so, we take advantage of that and I mean it works temporarily. That’s the thing I think that’s so interesting is so many people give themselves such a terrible time about the fact that they’re using food as a solution. But the truth is, it works temporarily. It does make it feel a little better.

Katrina: And what else were you supposed to do? You were trained to do this.

Natalie: Yes. And you have to know that is a part of your life. So, it’s there too, it’s available to you.

Katrina: Exactly. So, if you were literally trained to overeat which also I just want to point out when our parents make us eat things that don’t taste good to us. I mean I can’t tell you how many Brussel sprouts I was forced to eat in my life, also cold, disgusting, oh my God, it’s so gross. What we’re doing then is we’re being taught to just completely disconnect from our bodies. We do not like how this tastes. Now, I will not say, of course there is times we have to try things a few times and all of that. But in our family you could just say, “I don’t like that.” You still had to have a little bit of it.

And to me that’s a denial of my relationship with my body. One of my mantras for myself now is I don’t eat food that doesn’t taste good to me. Because I spent so many years either as a child being forced to eat things that didn’t taste good to me. And I’m not a picky eater. I just was forced to eat things I don’t like. But then going into adulthood and forcing myself to eat whatever the health food of the day was. I remember, a big thing is coconut in the vegan community, there is all of a sudden you remember when coconut oil became so big?

And you have to eat all the coconut things. I have never liked coconut my whole life but I’m like, “But this is healthy, this is good for you. You’ve got to find a way to like coconut.” Trying all the different coconut products. And I could find ways where I could sort of hide the taste and it wasn’t as bad but I still didn’t really like it that much. And in hindsight then I’m like, “What am I doing?” Why am I forcing myself to eat something that’s supposedly healthy?” There is so many things out there that are nutritious. I’m sure that I can still be very happily satisfied with eating those things that I like.

And of course, that’s now influenced my parenting as well, although the old messaging still, my oldest son who’s 16, he got more of it because I didn’t know this stuff yet. But I still have to sometimes work on, okay, they left those little crumbs and that’s literally like a half of forkful left. And why don’t you just eat that? No, don’t say anything. It’s okay, just scrape that up and go to the garbage, it’s okay to not eat all of that food, it really is.

Natalie: Yeah. I think that’s been a really fun thing as a mom for me because I’m the same way. I have, my oldest is 21 and it was a lot of that like, “Take three more bites. You have to take as many bites as you are old.” That overriding his own intuition. And I got wiser as I got older as a mom. And so, my last kid had a different experience. It was like, “How much do you want? That doesn’t taste good to you, okay.” I mean within reason.

I mean obviously she always would eat cookies, she had a moment of time where she ate mostly Oreos and it was like, okay, we’ve got to nip this in the bud. So, I think that, just that kind of segues a little bit into the other thing I was thinking about, this idea of trusting our bodies. And part of the problem is that there are things that don’t taste good to us, sure. But there are also things that taste really good to us that don’t really necessarily serve us.

So, I think we get sort of this mistrust in some ways because we’re like, well, I mean things that taste really good sometimes aren’t the things that are the healthiest to me. We’re delegating so much outside of us that there’s nothing really inside of us to sort of draw on. So where do we even begin with the idea? Because you talk about this in the book, you mention this in several different ways which I really loved. The idea of us – one of the things I love that you said, you talked to us becoming an expert on our bodies.

And that we listen to these people, experts, physicians and experts in the field and people that know more than us maybe. But we kind of think of them as consultants rather than the experts on us. And so, we take that information and we kind of filter it. But how do we develop that filter that helps us connect to what really works for us, that trust that we want to develop?

Katrina: I think what we have to recognize is that I think through just really society and the way that we all think about weight and weight loss is that we think that if we’re in a position where we struggle with our weight in any way then we can’t possibly be trusted to know what to do. Because if we had any insight into our bodies we would just ‘eat less and move more’ and I say that in quotes. We would just solve the problem. But obviously something must be wrong with us.

We are somehow deficient in some way so therefore now we need to outsource it to someone else like a trainer, or a nutritionist, or whoever it is that we’re going to work with. And then often the messaging from them is like, “Okay, do all these things and you’ll get these results.” And often if you actually do, do them you will get those results. But the problem is sometimes we’re not able to do it or we’re not able to do it over the long term or we’re just not willing to.

It’s just not the right thing for us and then if we don’t do it, it’s never like, this plan isn’t the right thing, we make it mean and sometimes even the messaging from the person giving us the plan is that something is wrong with us because we can’t follow it. And then we feel bad about ourselves because we feel guilt and shame and then what do we do when we feel bad? We eat more food.

Further perpetuating the belief that we have that we can’t be trusted and we don’t know what to do and certainly something’s wrong with us. So that we need to really understand. The other thing that we really need to understand is that humans as we currently stand, as we are, have been around for 200,000 years. And the amount of time that we’ve had refined flour and refined sugar in our diets on a regular basis has literally been, I mean a couple hundred years if we’re being generous.

So, our brains and our bodies have not evolved to know what to do with this stuff. So, it’s highly, highly palatable. We know this, that’s why it was created, that’s why it became more mainstream because it does taste so good. But what it really ends up doing when consumed on a regular basis for people who struggle in this way, not everybody obviously. It really just kind of hijacks our brains and our physiology. So that the way that our bodies have always been designed to operate, those signals just aren’t as easy to follow anymore.

And so, I’m not someone like you have to stop eating flour and sugar for the rest of your life but a lot of people, not necessarily everybody but a lot of people can really benefit from taking a break from that for a little while. Because what ends up happening is, I always think of it as your brain cooling off. It’s like there’s a fire going on up there because of this food that we’re eating. And we don’t even know what’s going on. Our brains are so jacked up on dopamine. We’re so confused about what’s actually important in terms of our own survival.

And our bodies are used to getting this sudden hit frequently of something that’s really easily digestible. It doesn’t really have to do the work of accessing your fat stores and turning that back into energy for their cells. That we’re just in this state where we really can’t truly trust our body’s signals anymore. When we feel hunger it’s excessive. It feels so strong like we’re going to die if we don’t eat. So, then we’re like, “No, but hunger is scary, I have to have food all the time around.”

And we start thinking that that’s just the truth. Or if I don’t eat, I’m going to faint. Or all these stories that we tell ourselves and that’s perpetuated by the snack food industry as well which tells us. You’re going to feel horrible if you don’t eat. So, you need to be eating every couple of hours. And the same thing with the sugar as well. The foods do these similar things.

So, what we need to do is get our brains to kind of cool off, we need our bodies to function the way that they were always meant to function, the way they literally were designed and evolved to function. And then from that place we can get more connected to our bodies of what actually does feel good in my body? And when you’re coming from that place and then you eat the food that is highly palatable, tastes really, really good but maybe isn’t so good for us. Yeah, maybe you notice for the 5, 10 minutes you’re eating it, oh my gosh this tastes so good.

But some people find oh my gosh, this is almost sickeningly sweet. It’s almost too much now. Or they find that their energy levels which before were so even and it felt amazing. Now they’ll be like, “Oh my God, I had such a sugar crush.” I just thought that was normal. I can’t tell you how many of my clients tell me. They’re like, “I thought just feeling bad was normal. I just thought that was how people felt.” And then you take a break from that and you realize, oh my gosh, I feel so much better. My body functions better.

I’m sleeping better, my energy is better. Everything in my life feels so much better, being me feels so much better. Then from that place we can move into that expert position where it’s like, okay, so this person is suggesting that maybe I do this. Or maybe I eat this or whatever they say the latest super food is or something. We’re like, “Okay, I’m going to try that.” But then we can kind of go, “Yeah, when I eat this, how do I feel?” Does this give me energy?

I remember for a while I wasn’t eating flour and sugar on a regular basis but then everyone’s talking about how nuts are so great and nuts are so nutritious and they’re so amazing. And I thought, maybe I should like nuts more. This was literally the thought I had. So, I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to eat more nuts”, even though I’ve never really liked nuts unless they were coated in chocolate, or honey roasted, or something.

Natalie: The nut was covered up, yes.

Katrina: Exactly, then it was okay. So, I’m eating all these nuts and it took me, I mean honestly, months to realize, you know what? I kind of get a stomach ache when I eat all these nuts. I think maybe I shouldn’t eat all of these nuts. So, it’s not like I don’t eat any nuts now. But nuts are just not a regular part of what I do anymore. So, I was kind of forcing myself to eat them or thinking this is something I should be doing because other people like it. And people say the fats wasn’t healthy or whatever.

But really what I came back to, but what is my body telling me? My body’s telling me, could you please stop? That’s really not so good anymore. And I think that what can happen then is from that connection, if you decide to go back to eating flour and sugar on a regular basis, you still have that connection. You still are so much more in control of understanding, am I actually hungry? Am I actually satisfied? Do I need food or not? It’s a skill that sometimes you kind of have to take away the noise that the sugar and flour creates to be able to hear and reconnect to those messages.

And then once you know them, then if you decide to you can bring things back in. But you still know what those messages are. And you can use your body as the guide. You don’t need to put your food into little boxes or measure it on a scale to know how much food you need. Your body will tell you that if you know how to connect to it. And I just want to mention that all of us are born with this skill, babies know how to do this. We just lost it over the course of time.

So, all we’re doing is, I think of it as we’re just going back to our factory settings. You know like when you do a hard reset on your phone? That’s all we’re doing, we’re just doing a little bit of a hard reset, getting back, just letting everything function properly, letting our tastebuds go back to normal so that raspberries actually taste sweet again, things like that. And then you often find you know what? I’m actually getting a lot of pleasure out of this food that’s actually quite nutritious and I don’t feel the need to eat these other things that are so highly palatable.

Natalie: Yeah. Well, and I think you then also kind of start to connect to how those things feel in your body because like you said, we lose that connection. It’s covered up with all the white noise that’s happening. So, when you’re able to kind of turn the volume down on that and really listen in, when you go back to eating a piece of cake you’re no longer going to eat three because it keep tasting good, because you’re going to start checking in with your body. And your body’s going to be like, yeah, but does it feel good?

I think you said, it seems like I remember there’s a section that says that food’s a one sided love affair. And I loved that. I often say, “Do you love this food or does this food love you back?” This food doesn’t really kind of – your mouth loves the food, your brain think’s the food’s a really good idea but does your body love it? Does it love your body? Maybe not so much. So, I think – go ahead.

Katrina: I was just going to say, I often talk to my clients and I say, “If you just really think”, I mean obviously we’re doctors so, “If you just really think about your cells in your body, just think of those little cells doing their job and doing such good work for you. If you really get connected to them and you were to ask them, “What do you need?” They would not be a cupcake.” Exactly, ice-cream, they would be like, “Some vitamins, some hydration, water.”

Natalie: Water, yeah.

Katrina: Exactly. If you really asked, what do my cells need? It is never a chocolate chip cookie. If you really get connected to what does my body need? And sometimes there’s some disappointment that comes with that. I’m not going to say that it’s always an easy breakup process. But we have created such a one sided love affair with food where it’s like, but I just love it, and food’s my friend, and it never lets me down. And I’m like, “No, but you know what? It’s just a digestible substance that’s sitting there. It’s just inert. It’s just sitting there.”

And we have to kind of question the way we romanticize certain foods because that creates so much excess desire for us.

Natalie: For sure. And I think the opposite is true as well in that we villainize things and tell ourselves that we can’t ever, we’re not supposed to. And I think that also creates this whole sort of psychological rebellion that makes us want to eat it more and disregard how it feels. And then feel terrible about ourselves because we like it and it’s a bad food.

And so, if it’s bad and we like it then probably it means we’re bad. I mean it’s like this goes both ways. Anything outside of food being neutral can create some just collateral damage.

Katrina: Yeah, we just have to be really clear about this food is just sitting there and it’s my thoughts that are making me want to eat it so much. It’s not the food. The food doesn’t have a control over us. And I think that is so liberating. And it can be kind of like – I think some people are like, “Okay, I hear you but how do you do that?” And of course, that’s what you and I both do is we help people to work through that. But when you really even just open up your mind to the possibility that it doesn’t have to be the way it’s always been.

That it doesn’t have to feel so hard to not eat that thing. If it feels so hard to not eat that thing it’s because you’re thinking thoughts that make that thing of excess importance to you. And so, it doesn’t mean that it always has to be that way. You can change the meaning that you give to it. And once you do that then it’s just like any other food. I always say, “I never want to feel any different about any food than I could take it or I could leave it.” I could eat it and it would taste great, I’m not saying I hate that. I’m not trying to tell myself that’s gross even when it’s not.

But at the same time, it’s also not that important. So, either way. I could take it, I could leave it and either way I’m okay versus oh my Gosh, I shouldn’t have that and but this one time and it won’t really matter. And then the next day being like, “Oh, why did I do that? I shouldn’t have done that.” I spent just too much of my life in that whole rollercoaster.

Natalie: Yeah. And I think the importance of it, of the food is like some of the things we talked about a few minutes ago. They came from our parents saying, “You’re wasting it if you don’t eat it.” So, it’s really important that I eat this because I can’t be wasteful. Or the importance of it is this is my grandma’s recipe. And it’s the one time of year that she makes it and so the importance comes from all sorts of places. But it’s never the actual food generating it. It’s always what we make it mean. The way we perceive it and what we kind of put on top of the food in terms of how we think about it.

That’s why as we’re saying, everybody, that you have some power and control here. That’s where you have the power and control, the food is no different. It just sits there and you make it mean something with your brain, from the past, things you’ve been believing for decades. Things that your parents believed that they also taught you to believe. Things that like you said, you developed in your career because you were like, “Well, this is my chance, I have to eat, it’s important right now because now is my chance to eat it. And I may go hours without”, whatever.

Whatever that swirl of sentences is that is creating importance, it’s never the food doing that. So even, yeah, even if you just open your mind to the idea that it isn’t that the food is important. It’s that you think it is. And that’s where we really get into, I think the real work, that that creates real and lasting change that you and I do with our clients which is not just here’s a meal plan and do what we say because we know.

Katrina: Because we know better than you. No, we really don’t. No one can tell you when you’re hungry. No one can tell you when you are satisfied. Only you can know that. So, when [crosstalk] it makes such a difference.

Natalie: And even you and I, you teach in the book the hunger scale which I also teach. I love how you lay it out. It’s so easy for people to connect to, even specifically negative one means this etc. I love that. So, I hope everybody kind of can get that, get a hold of that information because I think it’s so useful. But even then it’s like everybody’s individual experience of being the whisper of hunger or being starving is going to be totally different. And so yeah, no one outside of you can dictate. That’s something you have to learn to connect to.

And like we mentioned, the sort of taking a break from some of these foods that get in the way of you being able to listen to that and some of the emotional work that you can do to kind of separate out, is this my body saying it needs food or is this my brain needing relief or etc.? So, let’s talk a little bit about that, about the emotional experience that drives us. One of the things you mentioned I think as you’re telling your story is the idea that this was you kind of didn’t have time for friends, didn’t have time for going on a walk.

All of your time was consumed with this work that you were learning to do. And I think that that’s for a lot of us, at least for a lot of my clients they’re in all sorts of professions. And I hear so often, “I figured out so many things in my life but this is the one place where I can’t figure it out.” And I think it’s because for so many of us this is the one thing that got us through. This food is the thing that you had to do every day. You didn’t have to see your friends, you didn’t have to go on a walk but you had to eat.

And so, you figured out that you could use food to help you cope with what you were dealing with in the rest of your life. And it worked kind of for a minute.

Katrina: Yeah, it totally did. I mean listen, we used to be able to use our meal tickets as residents to go to what they called The Coffee Shop which sounds really nice but it was really a super dump. It was gross. They had terrible coffee and they couldn’t get a latte there or anything. There wasn’t anything like that. But they had really gross popcorn and old coffee, and candy bars. But they also had a Dove Bar, the ice-cream, really good, high quality ice-cream with a really good chocolate over it.

And I could use my meal ticket to get a Dove Bar. So, at three in the morning when I was up again on my way to the ER to go to admit some more patients. And it’s becoming clear to me that I’m not going to sleep and I’m on the brink of tears because I’m so tired. I always said, it’s like you’re so tired it hurts. Anybody with a newborn knows what I’m talking about. And it feels like it’s never going to end. It feels so punishing. And so, on my way to the ER I’d go and get a Dove Bar. And you know what? It did make me feel better for 5 or 10 minutes while I was eating that thing.

And so, we have to have some compassion for ourselves too. And we were just figuring out how to adapt to our environment, whatever that was, whenever we started with overeating, it was an adaptive process that served a process. That’s actually a smart thing to do, that’s actually a good thing to do. But at a certain point it becomes maladaptive. And when you understand that you can just go, “Okay. “ This is not a moral judgment on you as a human being.

This is just, you know what? That thing that helped you before, it’s not helping now. Now, it’s creating more problems than it’s helping. And so maybe it’s time to figure out a different way to adapt. And so, I think that’s where it comes into, okay, well, you know what? I’ve got to figure out what’s going on behind this, which is your emotions. And I’ve got to figure out what to do with these things. And I mean my emotional vocabulary was at a zero. It was like a vacuum.

I did not know what to do with any of this stuff, I really didn’t even think I had emotions. I had to even just learn the words for emotions and try to figure out how they feel in my body. And so, I just want to say that because I think some people then feel ashamed. Well, I don’t even know what I’m feeling, so I don’t know if I can do this. I’m like, “Listen, I was right there with you.”

Natalie: Yeah, you can start at zero.

Katrina: Yeah, exactly, you can start at zero. I remember saying, “I don’t think I have thoughts, I just have songs in my head, you know what I mean? I’m just singing songs from the radio. You know what I mean? So, it’s okay to come from that place of a true, true beginner, just understanding there’s probably still something that I can learn here. And I just think of it as so many of us want to still grow and develop as humans as we go along. We don’t think of ourselves as fully cooked, we’re done because we’re 25 or whatever.

And there’s just that next part of our growth and development as humans that we can be invited to take part in. And you and I both know, this is not always easy. But neither is feeling controlled by food. So, I kind of look at it, it’s either way is hard so do you want the thing that actually helps get you what you want? Or do you want to just keep repeating that keeps perpetuating what you don’t want?

Natalie: Yes. And I think there’s a difference between repeating the same cycle and returning to the same lesson in a different season. Repeating the same cycle is like you never making a left turn or a right turn out of it. You just keep making left turns over, and over, and over. And I think sometimes we still come around to the same place where it’s like, I thought I’d figured this out. But I know more, I’m more prepared, maybe I have a little bit more skill and I’m ready to take it on in a different place.

So, I think you may have thought you had some stuff down at 25 and now here you are at 45, you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I thought I’d figured this out.” It’s okay, we’re just in a new season where we have to apply some new skills and figure some new things out. And one of the things that I think will be really helpful for everybody with this book is – I mean I mentioned it in the beginning but your explanation of some of these physiological processes that I think we are just attributing to our, like you said, moral failings.

I know when I learned what sugar was doing in my body and my brain, my whole life I had just thought I was broken. I was a person who just was addicted to sugar and I would never be able to stop and I was weaker than other people. I mean I had all these sort of labels of myself that made me feel terrible. And when I really learned, actually my body’s functioning exactly as it’s supposed to. It’s taking this glucose in that it thinks is a really important thing and saving it for later so I can utilize it. And I have tons of stores.

I’m going to survive the apocalypse just fine. My body and brain just thought it was just doing me a favor every day. So, when I learned that it was like, I don’t have to beat myself up about that anymore. This is just my body doing what it knows how to do. And now that I know different I can do different. And it’s not about me, it’s just about when you know more you can do more.

Katrina: You can do something different, exactly. And I just love what you were saying about learning from the experience rather than just constantly circling, circling, circling. I think that’s so important because I think a lot of people think if it’s just not a linear progress, meaning the scale going down but also okay, I was taught one time, one method for processing emotions and it didn’t really work that one time I tried it. So obviously this isn’t going to work for me.

Instead, just understanding, you know, I just was coaching someone today who was saying that she was at a family event. And they let a toddler decide what they were going to eat and it was pizza and ice-cream. And she was like, “So I ate the pizza and ice-cream.” And then we were talking a little bit more about it and she was like, “Actually someone did ask me if I wanted to order something different and I said no because I really did kind of want to overeat.” So anyway, she was making that mean, you know, then she was having a hard time getting back on track again.

She’s making it mean it wasn’t going to work for her. And I was just saying, “But your deciding that I ate this food and that means that now I’m going to struggle. The way to look at this is that’s so interesting because in the moment I told myself, oh no, I don’t want to inconvenience anybody but really the truth of it was I wanted to use that as an excuse to eat this food and I still have over-desire for it. And that’s really good to know because now I can work on that.”

And so that’s what we learn and then like you said, the next time we can do better, we can try something different. We can work on what are our thoughts that make ice-cream and pizza seem so important and I need to have these all the time? And then going, “Hey, and when I did eat that, how did I feel? Was it really as good as I thought it was going to be?” I don’t know what your experience was Natalie, but I found that once I was so much more aware, so many foods that I had previously thought were so important and so delicious did not taste nearly as good as I thought they did.

And they still tasted exactly the same. It was just my brain, the way I was thinking about them that made them seem like they were just the best thing ever. And so, then I started realizing, again with my whole like I only eat food that tastes good to me, I’m not going to eat that thing. Or you know what? You can start eating a cookie and decide it doesn’t taste good and put it down. You don’t have to keep eating it. You know what I mean?

Natalie: Yes. That’s something that I remember the first time I spit something out where I was like, “I don’t even want to chew this up and swallow it. I don’t even like it.” And I was like, “Oh my gosh, I had made progress.” That to me was such a huge hallmark, it’s why I remember it because I thought it’s starting to matter. Me, I’m starting to matter more than this food experience. And that was so huge because it wasn’t just – it’s a cookie. I remember before it would be like, “Who cares what kind of cookie it is or what it tastes like. It’s a cookie, you just eat it.”

You don’t say no to it, you don’t spit it out. How dare you? But it was just little by little me starting to value, for me it was really a lot more like, how do I feel? There was so many things that I ate that felt terrible in my body and I just disregarded it because I was like, “Who cares? Tastes amazing.” So, to be able to start to value that more than the taste experience to me was huge. I mean it took a lot of work. That’s a skill that I have built for sure. But yeah, but it felt so much more like love than the other way of doing it.

Katrina: Yeah. It’s your relationship with yourself. It’s like you get to a point where you love and respect yourself enough to not do that to yourself anymore. And I do really think that for a lot of people, getting to that place just takes some emotional maturity. We just have to get to a place where we are mature enough as humans to go, “You know what? That old way isn’t working and I don’t want to treat myself like this anymore.” And so, for sure if you’re younger can you make progress with this? Yes, of course, I really do think so.

But I definitely hear people kind of beating themselves up. I just wish I were younger when I learned this stuff. I just wish I hadn’t struggled for so many years. And sometimes I’m like, “I don’t know about that because who’s to say that had you been exposed to this when you were younger, if you would have even been ready for it?” If it would have even been something you were open to. How about just it showed up at the right time and then you took advantage of the opportunity?

Natalie: Yes, I love that, that gave me chills because I think that is – I mean we deal in this sort of sphere with so much regret and about what we did to ourselves and what we didn’t know and what we did to our kids, or whatever. And I think that’s so important. The forgiveness of ourselves for the choices that we made knowing that this may not have even resonated at the time. This didn’t land. It lands now because you’re ready for it. So, let’s just take that and run with it.

If things about this are speaking to you, let’s take that little nugget and let’s run with it.

Katrina: Yeah, exactly, otherwise we’re beating ourselves up and wasting even more time. And the worst thing is actually knowing that this is what you need and then waiting another 5, 10, 20 years before actually doing it.

Natalie: Yes. And I think that that’s the idea that we can stop beating ourselves up even though it’s something that we’ve always done. I agree that it’s emotional maturity but I feel like it’s also a decision that we can make, that we can just decide that we’re going to move forward a different way. And I think with a lot of this knowledge like I said, when I learned about sugar, what sugar did in my body, it allowed me to let go of a lot of the guilt and shame that I’d been putting on myself.

But I also think, you know, we’ve talked a little, we’ve touched on it a little bit but the idea that we aren’t taught how to navigate our emotions outside of some of these things. This is the way that we were taught to deal with our emotions was to eat for a lot of us. That’s why we’re still here trying to figure it out. So, one of the things I love that you have a lot of resources in this book, a lot of different modalities that you mention, in terms of dealing with and processing emotions because that’s a huge part of this.

We’ve talked about food a lot but just so all of you know, Katrina and I are in agreement that the emotional part, and you’ll see when you read her book, that that’s a huge part of the process, the way that you think creates how you feel. And how you feel, how you’re showing up around food, all of that, it’s a new skill that you also have to build in this arena. That’s unique to this way of losing weight. You can Google any meal plan and get that but in order to figure out what’s going on behind the scenes, you need a little bit of extra help.

So, one of the things I really, really loved was you talked about this idea of rating our emotions. And I think one of the things we haven’t mentioned is part of all of this, part of connecting to your body, part of being able to process emotions and feel instead of eat, or find alternatives to dealing with emotions outside of food is being able to be present. And so, I think that’s one of the reasons why this stood out to me is because it helps you get kind of present with your emotions.

And the more we can get present and spend time just being here and not escaping to somewhere else the clearer that connection can sort of become. So, talk to us a little bit about this idea of rating our emotions. Tell us, give us some background and kind of describe it to them.

Katrina: Yeah. I mean I think a big part of us not wanting to feel our emotions is that when we’re feeling them, particularly the ones that are uncomfortable to feel it seems in the moment like it’s never going to go away. It seems like if I stay with this I will never get relief even when logically we know that’s not the case. It still seems like it in the moment. This is just going to consume me. Or I’m just going to have to live my whole life this way. And that’s why we turn to food, to make us feel better.

We’re like, “I don’t want to feel this. I don’t know what to do with this. It feels bad, I want relief.” And then food is reliable in giving us that relief. So, one of the reasons that I ask people to rate their emotions is because it’s a bit of an objective way, I mean it is still subjective but it’s a way for us to show ourselves that we’re making progress in processing the emotions. And so, the place where I really learned this was with tapping because in tapping at the beginning of tapping they ask you to rate the intensity of the emotion.

And then you go through the tapping process and then you rate it again at the end. And it’s so fun to see. Oh my gosh, I went down 2 points or 3 points, or sometimes even more than that. And you can do it again if you want to reduce it some more. And I felt like having some kind of scale would help. I mean especially with the people that I serve who are very analytical thinkers, that it would help them to see, no, I am making progress. Or actually I’m okay at a 2 level for this emotion that I was at a 5 before and I didn’t like that.

Or I started at a 7, now I’m at a 4. I kind of would still like to be lower, let me do this again, or try something different to process this emotion. So, the point of it is to just help you to see the progress that you’re making. But I think another way that it helps is sometimes – and hopefully this isn’t happening on a super regular basis for people but it does happen to all of us. Something really big or difficult happens and we’re at a 9. We’re at a 9.5, we’re at a 10 and it feels really, really, really bad.

And I think that being able to just – putting the number on it is essentially honoring to ourselves, yes, this does feel really bad. This is super intense emotion. That’s why this feels so bad. And rather than something horrible is going wrong, I have to get away from this, obviously I’m doing life wrong because I feel so bad. Oh, no, I’m experiencing an emotion, it’s at this intensity and that’s why it feels so bad. That’s why it feels like I’m rotting on the inside or whatever that feels so, so bad.

And then we can, if we decide to we can either just stay with it and breathe though it, and be with ourselves and stay with ourselves, and not abandon ourselves by eating. Or we can do some of the processing work. And be committed to the idea that this is what I need to be doing. I don’t need to go watch a show on Netflix or try to react in some way to get this to go away. I can do these things that actually process the emotion through me and out so that I can show up in the way that I want to.

I can’t tell you how many times I ended up staying up super late because I had so much emotion from the day I just had and then I felt like if I go to sleep I’m going to have to get up and go repeat the day again and I don’t want that because that felt so bad. So, I would just stay up late eating and watching TV or being on my phone, once we had phones.

Natalie: Yes, to try to clear yourself of it.

Katrina: Just yeah, try to avoid it all as though that somehow is going to help. But then, no, it’s still sitting there waiting for you. And I really learned that, I had a significant grief experience many years ago. And I read something at that time that said grief is patient, it will wait for you. And that’s I think the first time that I really heard that concept. They were talking about if you don’t actually process this grief, you will get a divorce. Or you will gain 200 pounds. Something will happen because you’re not staying with it.

And again, such a good rule follower, I’m like, “Okay, I have to schedule in time to actually be with my grief.” Because you never feel like doing it in the moment. You always want to avoid it. But that was kind of my first experience of that and of course felt super awful at the time to do it. But I’m so glad I did and I can see now so many years later how that being willing to feel that and work through that and honor the process really of the emotional experience really, really helped me later.

Well, and we could say with grief, we all think it’s kind of revered or it’s a special thing for us is grief. But the other emotions are not any different. And it’s the same thing where it’s like, you know what? You want to stop feeling angry, first of all you have to recognize that anger is a normal human emotion and it’s okay for you to feel anger, especially women. We’re often taught that we shouldn’t be feeling anger. It’s okay to feel anger but that doesn’t mean that you go and bite someone’s head off. You know what I mean?

You’re super mean but it also doesn’t mean that you have to stuff it down and pretend everything’s fine. There are ways to process that anger through. It’s just as valid as any other emotion. And when you do, it’s just a totally different experience on the other side of it.

Natalie: Yeah. I think – I mean I love the idea that – because I think the way that you posed that, meaning we sort of – we all think grief is something that we should give time to. Everybody says, “Give yourself time to grieve and grief is a process.” I mean you hear that so often. Maybe it’s because grief is a part of a human experience that’s shared. But so is anger, and so is sadness, and so is disappointment, or frustration, or overwhelm. But there’s some of those things that like you said, we don’t allow ourselves to feel.

Or we allow ourselves to react to because we think they’re okay and some are not okay etc. But the bottom line is all emotions are neutral in that they don’t have a negative or a positive value. It’s not one’s better or worse, one’s right or wrong, one’s moral and immoral. They’re just experiences that we have in our body. And so yeah, to be able to allow all feelings. Maybe some feelings take less time than grief to process through, overwhelm may be a little bit different than a deep despair or grief.

But all of them require presence, requires you to open up some space, requires you to not use fear to stop it, or food to numb it, just to be with it. And yeah, I mean I think it’s really, really, really hard for us. But I love the idea of both giving your emotions credit, meaning saying, “I’m at a 10 and that’s where I’m at.” Being just honest about it. And also using it as a tool to say, “I can go through this.” Because I think for so many of us, we avoid it because we’re afraid of how long it will take, or how hard it will be.

I had a client once who I remember had, I mean it in fact was grief that she was kind of avoiding processing. But when we talked about it, it was like, “Well, what will happen if you just let yourself feel these feelings?” She was like, “Well, I’ll be in bed for weeks and my business will fall apart, and my family will fall apart. And my whole life will be ruined.” Was like, how do we know that’s true? We don’t. We don’t have any experience to tell us that’s true.

You bring up in this book, Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor that talks about the 90 seconds, the chemical process is 90 seconds long. Which I love because I’m like, “Give me a timeline, I can handle 90 seconds.” Even if it’s multiple waves, I’m like, “This one will be 90 seconds too.” But the idea that we can say, “Okay, I’m in at the beginning of this wave feeling this level. I’m at a 6. Let’s see what happens.” If I’m present with it, if I don’t eat to get rid of it and give I myself five minutes, 50 minutes, 30 minutes and let’s at the end of it give it a number 2.

So, whatever your process is in the middle, you give lots of great tools in there. I’ve given my listeners lots of great tools in the podcast as well but to say I’m at this number and then now it’s at this number, I think gives us evidence, it allows us to feel, period. And it also gives us evidence that it isn’t going to last forever and isn’t going to [crosstalk].

Katrina: Right. It’s working, what we’re doing is working. And I can’t tell you how many times I have felt something so intensely and then I’m always surprised how short the length of time it stays is. Even though every time it feels like it’s never going to end and it’s the worst thing ever. And then I’m like, “Oh my gosh, it’s gone.” Every time, it never gets old.

Natalie: Yes, thank you for saying that.

Katrina: So obviously we can’t guarantee that that’s always going to be the experience but it often is, it really is especially for your typical day-to-day things that come up. And often I will also remind myself, I’m feeling that. And sometimes we think, well, then I have to stop and do this thing. There is also a skill of going about your day feeling whatever it is that you’re feeling. And I will often just say to myself almost like a little mantra, “This is what it’s like to live a normal human life or to have a normal human experience.”

Normalizing it for myself because we have been taught and raised to think that something’s going wrong if we’re feeling this way. And nothing’s going wrong. This is a normal, normal experience. I’ve had thoughts of I’m pretty sure that this is normal for adults. Or sometimes I tell myself, “It’s just really hard sometimes being an adult human.” Just offering myself some love, and compassion, and patience. And I’m not going to abandon myself. I will stay here with myself. We can get through this, it’s going to be okay.

Sometimes I think it’s like me myself, where I think of as me, my actual identity and my body, it’s like we conjoined twins. You know what I mean? We’re like there’s two parts to us. And it’s kind of like me and my body. And we’re in this together. And there’s no separating us. We have to be together. But there’s a way for me to then kind of offer myself that love, and space, and support that we often think other people need to give us or that we ask food to give us and we can really offer it to ourselves.

But we have to practice it. I think that’s the thing. It’s like if you’re going to be the expert of your body then you have to act like an expert. When you think everyone else is the expert then there’s no responsibility for you. You just have to sit there and be told what to do and you just have to do it. Well, we don’t really when it boils down to it, we don’t really like that too much. That’s when we rebel. But if we’re going to take back the expert status then that means that we have to become experts.

We have to explore. We have to understand ourselves better. We have to understand our bodies better. And that is going to require some curiosity and some commitment to the process of wanting to move forward on this. And that’s why I always say, and some people aren’t going to want to do that and that’s totally okay. I get it. I totally get it. But there are people who are like, “You know what? I’m at my wit’s end. This other stuff I’ve been doing is not working and I want to find a different solution.”

My book is called How to Lose Weight for the Last Time. But obviously I can help people to lose weight for the last time but another way to lose weight for the last time is to stop focusing so much on losing weight and to instead focus on, how can I connect to myself? What does my body actually like? Do I need to eat right now or not? Maybe I could stop when I’ve had enough. If you do all of those things you probably will lose weight anyway despite your effort.

So, it doesn’t have to be so weight loss focused or the only way I’ll know that I’ve done a good job or that I’m succeeding is if the scale goes down. There’s other [crosstalk] as well. Not everybody necessarily wants to weigh whatever weight. And I always say, “I don’t care what you weigh at all but I really, really don’t want you to live your life being consumed by food, feeling so controlled by it, beating yourself up over what you’ve eaten and what you haven’t eaten.” I mean it’s just no. One of the saddest things for me is to think of someone on their deathbed still struggling with that.

Natalie: Yes. I actually had an experience with my grandma, I mean she was in her 80s. My grandpa passed away and she was out loud giving herself some crap about eating chocolate. She was like, “All I want to do is eat chocolate.” And I remember my aunt just looking at her and saying, I mean they’d been married for 60 years. You’re grieving. She was just like, “At what point are you just going to eat chocolate?” And insert whatever, it’s not that it has to be about the eating.

But I just remember that very sticking out to me and actually being kind of one of the catalysts for me being like, “I kind of want to figure this out now.” Because I thought, I just want to have the freedom to live my life and to not be at 80 giving myself a hard time for how I was coping or with what food was going in my mouth and what was going to happen on my body as a result. And I think I love that conjoined twins sort of visual because I think all of us are in that same situation.

We have ourselves and we have our bodies. And a lot of us are trying to live separately but we’re all conjoined, so whether you’re aware of your twin or not.

Katrina: Neither of you works without the other.

Natalie: You’re just dragging her around with you. And it would be so much easier if you’re working together and taking steps together instead of just…

Katrina: Still on the same team. You’re on the same team. You both want the best for you.

Natalie: You can carry each other rather than just being in a war. There’s no separating you. You are here in this together anyway so why not create a little peace and space and have some compassion and love in the mix so that it feels, yeah, like a team effort rather than a battle to the death.

Katrina: Right. I mean your body is really just trying to do what’s best for you at all times. It’s a literally genetically programmed to do that. And so, when we’re battling against it and so mean to it. I mean and despite all that it still is working. It’s so hard for us.

Natalie: Yes. Your heart is still beating, it is still storing all the fat for later, doing all the things for you.

Katrina: It’s doing it all. I have to say, it took me a long time to really even understand that process of or even the concept of self-compassion and self-love. So, I just want to put that out there because I think sometimes people think, oh, well, but she’s a coach so somehow she became a coach and then this just magically happened to her. And I know for you, I mean a lot of this work you did before you even became a coach. But even so it’s still something that we work on. We’re still learning more.

I always think of it as like where do I struggle? Let me work on that. And then I’m going to help my clients with it and they could take 20 times less amount of time. I’m bumbling around figuring it out and then I’ll just cut to the chase and give you the Cliff’s Notes version over here.

Natalie: Yeah, which is exactly I feel like what this book does. It takes all of your experience, all of your insight from what you have lived, you’re not a person who just learned stuff at medical school and is spitting it back out. You learn stuff about yourself in medical school. You went through some stuff. And you’re here kind of sharing it for all the world. So, I’m super excited about that because I know to this point in your life it’s been mostly other physicians that have gotten to partake of all of your wisdom and goodness.

And now everybody else gets a little taste, just so fun, so much good here. So yeah, if you learned anything from Katrina and I, it’s love yourselves more.

Katrina: Yes, that’s where you need to focus.

Natalie: And we’re all in this together, every single one of us is human. So yeah, looking at any one person and saying, “Well, they don’t know.” We all kind of do. Every single human suffers. And all of our brains are just trying to do our best for ourselves.

Katrina: Exactly, exactly, totally.

Natalie: It was so good to chat with you. Thank you so much.

Katrina: Yeah, thank you so much. Thank you for having me on.

Natalie: I’m so excited for everybody, all my people to get exposed to all of our goodness. And everybody go out, so why don’t you tell us, name of the book is How to Lose Weight for the Last Time. Tell us where they can find it. Tell us about you, if there are physicians listening for some reason that haven’t found you yet, let’s get them over. Give us all the goods.

Katrina: Yeah. So, I have a podcast too, it’s called Weight Loss for Busy Physicians. And the book is called How to Lose Weight for the Last Time: Brain Based Solutions for Permanent Weight Loss. And so, it’s available anywhere book are sold. So, you can find it at Amazon, Barnes & Noble, independent booksellers. It’s all available. There’s also an audiobook version that I did narrate. So, if you feel connected to my voice in some way or you’re really an audiobook listener, that’s available as well. And yeah, I think it’s a really great start.

I give you a lot of really good help to get going, a lot of really good understanding. And I think, can you do it on your own? I think definitely but I think there is definitely going to be readers who will in reading it, learn so much more about themselves and their struggle. And are going to recognize that they need some coaching help.

And of course, you, Natalie, are a great resource for them to be able to work through that. I mean can you do it yourself? Yes, but why would you when you have a coach available to you who can make it go so much faster, really cut to the bone and figure out what the problems are and move things along. I always think of it as we’ve all struggled for long enough. So, we don’t have to make it take any longer than it has to.

Natalie: Yeah, get a partner, someone else’s brain on the case with you and get it figured out in half the time.

Katrina: Exactly. Exactly.

Natalie: Okay, thanks, Katrina.

Katrina: Thank you.

Natalie: So good to be with you.

Katrina: So, fun, thank you so much.

Natalie: Absolutely.

                                                                                                                   

Okay everybody, I hope you loved that as much as I did. I am so happy that I got to bring you a little dose of Katrina’s wisdom and expertise. She’s amazing. And her book is fantastic. And I loved it so much I bought a bunch of copies to give away to you for free. All you have to do is head to iTunes and leave me a review about the podcast. Tell me something you’ve learned from the podcast. Something that’s helped you. Why you love it, why you listen every week.

And then head to itbeginswithathought.com/review and let me know the title of your review and your contact info so I can send you your own free copy of Katrina’s amazing book, How to Lose Weight for the Last Time. Thanks everybody. I’ll see you soon.

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Weight Loss Success with Natalie Brown. If you want to learn more about how to lose weight for the last time, come on over to itbeginswithathought.com. We’ll see you here next week.

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Meet Natalie

I spent over 2 decades battling my weight and hating my body, before I found a solution that worked FOR GOOD. I lost 50 pounds by changing not just what I eat, but WHY. Now I help other women like me get to the root of the issue and find their own realistic, permanent weight loss success. Change is possible and you can do it. I can help you.

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